Cardano Community X Space — 元の書き起こし（一次情報 / Raw Transcript）

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It's not a small deal. Being able to verify Groth proofs on chain, it opens up an enormous world of use cases and applications that are very powerful. And so especially for bridge design or reusable DeFi patterns or things like that.

And the fact that these proofs are small and you can verify them in WebAssembly. I wrote the first version of the WebAssembly. I think Phil got it down to a reasonable proving time. If Phil, what did you get the WebAssembly proof or down to in terms of the size and what was the case size for it?

A is 21 now and it can be 20 if we reduce the security statement from specifically master private key to credential to coin level key, which Thomas Velkopf recommended as sort of a safe security assumption.

But I just kept it at K21. And with K21, it is 60 second browser proving time and four second desktop proving time. And was that the Go code that I wrote that compiled? Yeah, it's all the base. Yeah, entirely the Go code that you wrote.

The core of that optimization was actually one that was in your code base, the prove stream vendor patch to the Gnark Go code base, which was a crazy optimization to find. And Thomas was very impressed with it as well.

Yeah, well, the problem is I was working with a constraint because the original design I had, I had 32 gigabytes of memory to prove into, but WebAssembly is constrained to four gigabytes. So then I was trying to figure out how to shard it.

And so I did a WebWorker set up with the four gigabyte constraint, but then I couldn't, I noticed there were issues. And so, I just patched geosnark and I said, okay, this is how to fix that. It took a little bit of time to figure that out.

I think it was like one 30 in the morning on a Saturday or something. And it's like, Oh, this is probably a way to do that. Uh, but that was a lot of fun. I haven't done anything like that in years. And, uh, I was just blown away by, uh, how high quality, um, the tooling has become for Cardano guys.

It's like legit or day and night from where it was at just a few years ago. And, um, it's very easy to navigate work with this tooling. Your code base was incredibly impressive with all the documentation, perfectly up to date, uh, lots and lots of like security analysis and useful insights around proving.

In fact, the go code, if you go on the narc repository, they have like this massive mega threat of people who have been trying to get it to work in Wasm. And your patch is like, it's like a very high quality solution to that.

where there's this huge effort to try to do what essentially your vendor Go patch already does. I didn't know that. I just had to solve it. I had limited time. Can you do an upstream commit then to their library and see if they accept it?

Yeah, I'll give it a go. Yeah. Quick question. Since you guys were working on this issue and it was kind of like satellite, whether you guys were just like privately interested into it or you also knew that this was going to have to lead to the the the Glacier Drop stuff because it is tethered to it and stuff.

No, there's no there's no Glacier Drop component. This was just a more abstract question of can you recover from 24 keywords a derivation path or multiple paths of a of a wallet in a in a contract and this can be used for any CNT and this can be used for any asset as a provability thing.

So the real use case here long term would be instead of having your 24 keywords, you could have an alternative artifact and you can implement what's called a custodial deadman switch. So you have some other credential that is provable and then if you don't use your wallet for a period of time inheritance and all sorts of things.

Yeah, I'm saying you die inheritance, whatever you get swept into the smart contract and then you use that to pull them out of the smart contract. Holy shit. I don't want to go back into the the original, you know, the issues that you know, the community kind of blew up out of all hell and the whole the sweep of the what do you call it?

The original voucher stuff. This would have been very helpful back then, right? If this was even a capability that involved. Yeah, the reason we had to do this week was that the secret that the user had had become compromised Attain which was the sales entity went out of business and that sales entity it Wound down it leaked the personally identifiable information or we had reason to believe that and one of the employees may have leaked it And so we were concerned that given enough calendar time These at-rest accounts because that could be used to recover the redemption accounts would be used by an attacker And so our argument was because it was a multi-sig account meaning that multiple people had access to it that commercially speaking Redemption had not occurred yet.

It was the last stage of redemption from a Custodial wallet or a multi-sig wallet from the sales entity to a wallet you had sole control over So if that gets compromised, it's kind of the equivalent of hey pick up your couch at the loading dock you know, the dock lock breaks and then somebody drives by with a pickup van, takes your couch and then you show up and say, Hey, where's my couch?

It's like, well, somebody got into the loading dog and stole all the couches. So we said, all right, why don't we move the couches to a different warehouse and tell the people instead of going to warehouse a go to warehouse B it's kind of the thought process behind it.

The, and the problem is that, you know, some people don't like that they have to drive more and they have to do something different to redeem. So I can understand why people get a little upset, but you know, most reasonable people would understand that if the couch is going to be stolen, it's probably a good idea to move it to a different warehouse.

And they go through that inconvenience because sales not complete. And the other thing is by taking that position, also you have a refund potential that if you don't pick up the couch in a certain period of time, well, then the transaction is voided and you get refunded, you know, and I think it's very reasonable to talk about a refund after 10 years of not picking up your couch.

Oh no. All of that to me. In my opinion, it was handled legitimately. Like, I mean, come on, dude, like most businesses have 30 days. It's like 10 years. It's like, okay, but you can't win with the internet.

No, the internet always wins. Um, and, um, another thing. So I saw that you guys, uh, and I'm just going to keep firing on this cause it all kinds of relates a little bit, you know, and, and thank you for coming, bro. Like every once in a while, super fire. That's what keeps me showing up. You know, this level of conversations about very high level, awesome conversations with you. And I hang out with Phil every day and micro and Riley and Luca and shit.

So those are the things that keep me showing up without even caring about any kind of compensation or any kind of weird energy like that. Um, we just show up for fun. Um, so recently, how, how do you guys address the issue or was there even any potential issue with the, the glacier drop claim in terms of unquote compromised wallets from from the second fight.

It's not our concern. The glacier drop is a passive process. It goes through. If your wallet is compromised, your wallet's compromised, there's no way to change the destination addresses for that. So, you know, they have to be swept as soon as they get to those compromised addresses to the white hat and then get redeemed.

If not, then a black hat can steal them if you've spent from those addresses. But I mean, this is the reality. You can't build a passive automated process and then complain that the passive automated process is doing what is in the smart contract.

If it says, send it here, it's gonna send it there throughout the entire year. If we had the ability to change that, then the Midnight Foundation would have to intervene in every single- People complain. Well, I didn't get my money, so now I go change this address or do this thing. Or actually my wife is getting it. We're getting divorce. Can you switch it over to this one? No, you can't you can't do that.

You just say look, um, it is a passive process. That's the address you registered Um, you know, it suggests that was eligible. Everybody got paid out the same The only uh filtering was at the beginning for sanctions lists and anybody who's on an offact list got pulled off And so we went one time sweep with chinalysis And at that point it's a it's a ongoing concern And if you lose your wallet lose your wallet you lost your claim or if your wall is compromised It's the unfortunate realities that come with Um the decentralization and infrastructure that the whole ecosystem is found around.

So, okay, cool Um, so reason it's so important to understand that nobody paid for night You know, and so so it would be one thing if there was a commercial transaction in an ico And there was special consideration and there's an expectation of delivery But if it's an airdrop and you didn't pay for it can't really cry too much if if there's an issue here or there You know, I understand there's economic value now, but this is free money that people got so, uh, you know, I I there's nothing technologically that can be done the terms and conditions were public and everybody played by the same rules, nobody gets a special set of rules just because They they they have special connections or access we call that the legacy financial system And web 3 code is law if the smart contract says it that's what the smart contract does and uh, you know These are the consequences of your wallet choices and I feel bad and it's unfortunate that uh, this happened with second phi um There's a lot of things that have occurred here that honestly speaking are deeply distasteful it should have never happened and um Seems to be deciding that they're going to recuse themselves and pull out of the ecosystem or at least massively reduce That's what I was going to ask Before we get into that, okay, that's what I was going to kind of tiptoe around and you know just one step at a time type of thing is you know you know a couple of and you don't have to get in a comment into this because you know the internet always wins type shit so if you ever feel like you know it's non-constructive to what you know in the background just no don't even just but you want to talk about that shit until they resolve it or whatever it um so you know there's a couple posts made been like hey they are sort of recusing themselves from being part of the pentat or at least what we kind of gathered was that they the translation and Phil was like hey this translation kind of states something but at the same time and whatever but they're recusing themselves from the pentat and I and I'm like what was your what is your They meant just like a Japanese to English translation thing because in English they said we're stepping away from the pentad In Japanese, they said we are stepping away from being a Cardano founding entity That's what i'm saying Yeah, um, it it's hard to say Uh, so, you know, there's three dimensions to this. Uh, the first dimension is the immediate What are you going to do about the real fight? Excuse me the the second five people What are you going to do about those people and how you're going to take care of them? Now the problem is that there is an easy happy path And then there's a not so easy happy path and having lived the not so easy happy path for more than 10 years I unfortunately have enough trauma to tell you the consequences of it Um, the easy path is what phil and i've been working on with others, which is you know, how a some form of recovery? application the technical path Yeah, the white hat puts the money into that and then basically people redeem passively and uh, you know It's it's it's a smart contract. It's non-custodial. Huzzah. Awesome The non-easy path is you've lost your keywords or the black hat got the money Then the problem is that you can't prove that's your money But the money is still in the custody of emirgo Or the white hat or if they're one and the same Okay, so that's a big fucking problem Because uh, how do you prove you're the owner of that wallet?

You know, what's this? Isn't this ironic charlotte? Isn't this fucking ironic? This is the eight about now the eight about you're very different. I I never had that problem And the reason being is when the crowd sale was done by attain in japan They forced everybody to kyc So we had their passports. We had bank account information. We had real life human identity So if somebody came and say i'm mr ichi and I bought this thing we could go into the kyc profile There's 9,400 some people and, you know, MWE and BDO audited that and they meticulously went through and matched everything.

We could go through that and be like, yeah, okay, you did buy it on this date and this time and these things. All right. Well, you need to reconfirm your identity. You need to go through the entire KYC pipeline again, and then give us an address and we can vent. Pretty straightforward, right? Well, nobody who had these wallets went through KYC. So how do I know that's Hosky's wallet, Esko's wallet, Phil's wallet, Mike's wallet? You just don't. You don't really know.

And so this is a real tough situation for that. And they're kind of in a difficult situation because people first did not consent to this mechanism. So they technically could just sue a Mergo to try to get recourse or file a criminal complaint. The other thing is that that even if. They do consent to this. What if they don't provide ample evidence? And in Mergo's mind, they can't make that consideration. Who is the decider? And what is the governance structure for the unhappy path? It's a deeper mess. It's as bad as you guess. It's as bad as you guess. And this is actually one of the reasons why Midnight Passport exists. Because what you can do with Midnight Passport is you can introduce the idea of verifying that an account belongs to somebody, but not reveal it until later date.

So you can sign a wallet and say, well, that's Phil's wallet or Esco's wallet. Only Phil or Esco could have signed that. And so you can create a proof of ownership structure, but not reveal the identity. So then if the wallet gets compromised, then you can come back later and prove that actually was your wallet. And only you could have signed that. And it's not, it has a property called non-reputability.

So this is one of many, many, many applications of Midnight Passport. And it's one of the reasons why real people want to have KYC or some form of human identity involved in cryptocurrencies. And I understand it and I know the value of it. I just think the risks outweigh the benefits. So you need a different identity primitive, which is why we've been working very carefully and closely on adding Midnight to the conversation because you get a selective disclosure regime. And I think it's a fair compromise. But in lieu of that, it's just brutal to do this entire thing. So the good news is the amount is relatively low. It's a few million dollars. And the bad news is this is probably going to take about five years to 10 years to service that group of people. And it's going to have to be done meticulously. And a lot of third parties are going to have to be used. And it's basically a new aid of voucher. Yeah, yeah. Then somebody can try and find them. Where's Monad though? I haven't seen him. I'm just trolling. I'm trolling, bro. I don't think he said anything on that. Exactly. You only hate Charles Hoskins. Everything I do is evil and wrong. I'm the world's worst human.

A hundred percent. But when these other things happen, it's never an issue. It's just again. You can't win with the internet. It's just not possible Yeah, so let's ask school a little bit. I'm trying to invite Bruno up here. Shout out to Bruno He's been joining the spaces recently is CTO for algo I'll go around foundation and stuff. So I'm trying to come home come up here You know to just have a chat with like with you and everybody he used to work it I know that and I'm just trying to like hey, yeah, we're past the initial Which Bruno is this do you see him down there? He's got he's in front of a boat with the Sun on the horizon He'll pull up let's see if you can pull up but the whole thing is that like at the beginning of the industry, you know There's very cutthroat one-to-one Cardano ethereum salona these whatever everybody's like fine Yeah, like now we're past that stage in the you know blockchain industry Then now is about providing products and services with undeniable value propositions to the customer.

And it is it is not about like a very tribalistic approach as it used to be. So, you know, like now that I've been hosting spaces nowadays, I'm just making sure now it just is about, you know, the value prop of everything. So and he's been been awesome and pulling up lately and stuff. So just trying to invite him up here and making sure. I wouldn't wear that. Bruno's out there. Is that Bruno Martins over? Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Back in the day. Well, congratulations on the promotion, man. Yeah, so it's fire. I don't know how the hell he ended up coming up in here. Maybe he's bored or something, but talks about a lot of stuff. You know, he still watches the community. Apparently, Algorand has some, you know, they use similar key derivation. And he was talking about last time there. You know, we have a common issue, which is hardware wallet support and how hardware wallet sort of just like all the chains for like, if you're not Ethereum, they'll just like, OK, you have to pay me forever to do anything, which isn't great.

No, it's super fire. Like hanging out with fucking Phil and Michael and Lucas. It's just like change the entire dynamic of what before were like very degenerate meme and NFT minting kind of spaces into very like tech oriented solutions, oriented, business oriented spaces and stuff. And it's far more enjoyable. But, you know, Bruno, what's up? You got Charles and up in here. I saw you down there, so I figured out just kind of shoot the shot, right? Thanks, man. I like to join. And I don't I was not planning on speaking, but just, you know, the Algorand guys don't do many spaces. So and I I really like Cardano still, so I just like to join you guys. And hey, Charles. Long time no see. Good to see you again. I was trying to remember when you left IO, like was that like 2021, 2022?

Yes. I remember you were with us for a while. Yes, it was a bit ago, but I still follow Cardano and I've been joining some of the spaces of the community because there's a lot of synergy between the two ecosystems, especially around crypto primitives and R&D. We share a lot of things and it's very interesting to me to hear what everybody else is doing. I think it's a tie that raises all boats if we align on something. Well, remember John Woods went over too. We have a saying like only the good IO engineers go to Al Grant. We send them. That's crazy. I can confirm. But no, actually it's Al Grant is one of the good ones. There's a lot of. wonderful ideas there like Silvia was the guy who came up with using a VRF with the cryptographic surtition and these other things and it's a legit solid protocol, solid ecosystem. The one thing that Algorand didn't do that always surprised me because you guys had Craig Gentry working for you and I always got jealous over that because Craig is a hero of mine and you know he invented homomorphic encryption. He was Dan Bonet's student and I figured for sure you guys were gonna go heavy into lattices and do a lot of lattice-based crypto in Algorand and you did Falcon which was on the hash side of the aisle but I just thought for sure there was going to be this major lattice play and you guys were going to be the first to productize lattice-based folding and I was kind of sad that that didn't come in.

Well we are so we are we have Chris Pykart which I'm sure you know. Yeah. I mean I don't know if I'll tell you it's probably one of the fathers of the whole modern lattice space and we are putting a lot of work in Falcon in particular and there's two versions of Falcon that we're working on. So one already there is Falcon 1024 because we use the count model so there's a half size which I think might be interesting for you guys because UTXO is a bit more efficient in that space. You probably can live with the Falcon 512 if you guys want. I mean this is another topic where for me I just think it's a lot of synergy between the two ecosystems and we're going to put a lot of work around lattices in Falcon and the whole post-quantum sort of efforts.

So what you're saying is you're working on some sort of lattice solution? Yes, Falcon is lattice. There are other schemes that we have been looking at but because I mean we have we've been using Falcon for a long time since 2022, I wasn't there, but there's state proofs, uses Falcon for quite a long time. And now we're adding to actual native accounts. So accounts in Algorand will be authorized with Falcon signatures. Yeah, and Falcon's really cool. I think NIST even brought you guys into the standards suite for it. We were looking at Falcon because we're working on Dan Bonet's paper and What's His Faces paper from Serenath from Microsoft Research on lattice-based folding. And we've been thinking really deeply and carefully about what is the ideal lattice-based scheme to optimize for folding and do embedded proofs. And so it's kind of hard because you tend to have radically different cryptography and optimizations for the inner proof for the folding part versus the outer proof for the embedding part when you You want to emit a proof and put it on the chain? so We've been able to get the folding components to work really well and a big thing for me is can I do this with like A new arithmetic ization where you use a tensor CCS and you're able to use CUDA to optimize that So you can just fall back on all the Nvidia software and you get like these crazy fast GPU-optimized folding proofs, but on the but we did look at Falcon actually for a proof embedding For the outer proof and I think there's definitely some optimizations there talking with Dan over at Stanford He still thinks there's room for about another Having or quartering of the proof sizes for for lattice-based crypto And that would be awesome because then you can start talking about like 10 kilobyte 20 kilobyte proofs as opposed to these much larger Proofs that exist the other thing that we've been talking about is like should we just bite the bullet and start talking about? An actual end-to-end formal specification of some of the mathematical problem problems that are underlying there like module SIS and you know These things and and so we've been having a lot of fun asking what level of formalization is possible one of the guys on our team that you may have met when you work with us was Mark off whole Weiss and he worked at Microsoft research for years and he led the Everest project with a bunch of other guys and that's where they were trying to do F-star formal verification of TLS and a lot of the web crypto stack And so they learned a huge amount from that and I think with all the new tooling that we've developed There's actually a direct line of sight to do some Pretty aggressive formal engineering and this is where I could see us working with you guys at Algorand if you're really serious You say hey, we think this is as good as it gets and Chris is like I can't optimize this anymore Then at that point it may make sense to go and say fuck it. Let's go and do a reference implementation in a formally verified stack. So you get really hardened crypto that's portable and you kind of have a multi-institution library. So you bring a bunch of crypto people together from various chains and we all go and highly optimize it and get it working really well. And then we go over the NIST and be like, hey, make sure this stays in the standard suite so people can build ASICs for it inside the chips, just like they did AES and elliptic curve crypto and all these other things.

I'd forgotten that Falcon was a lattice base there for a second. I was thinking it was a hash base and I was confusing you guys for Sphinx. Which is- Oh, no, we're not in that camp. Yeah, you're on the lattice side. I mean, yeah, because you guys have good cryptographers. Ethereum doesn't. Let's go to hash base crypto. You're like, okay, so you don't even have additive homomorphism. You have no good algebraic properties with this. So you're going to be like post-quantum until you need to do something useful, like a threshold signature or whatever. And then you have to build some sort of giant MacGuffin and that doesn't really work well and it doesn't scale. We will lattice world. It's algebraically richer than elliptic curves. You can do everything with it, you know, and you can do homomorphic encryption, multi-party computation, all this other stuff. So you have universal crypto primitive. So yeah, so many of you guys hire Craig and Chris and these other guys. I just figure you guys were going to be like the leader in the space for lattices and I was kind of waiting for like an end-to-end lattice thesis of how we're going to do lattice with VDFs and VRFs and do a post-quantum VRF and lattices for signatures and lattices for encryption and all this stuff. So then we just get on that and be like, Hey, can we throw some money and join a coalition and co-develop it with you guys? Well, um, I don't know how much your crypto guys actually tell you everything, but I've been, uh, we've met a couple of times and we actually been talking about VRF, so we actually publicly announced our PQ roadmap and there will be, so we have an idea for a VRF, uh, for a post-quantum VRF that, uh, would be useful for everybody. Chris says might put a paper early next year. Uh, so, I mean, everything you said, I agree with Charles. I think, uh, we should chat, I chatted with Jesus and what's his name? Um, uh, Inago or Fergie? Oh, Fergie. No, I haven't speak with him. Yes. I've been, I spoke with him a couple of times and just to introduce the topic, uh, because, uh, I align with you, like we're doing work and that rises everybody's, uh, votes. So it's kind of like, uh, benefits everybody.

Well, you know, I talked about, uh, about this with Silvio back at Milken and I think it was 2022 and, um, you know, cause he was there, I was there and we, he's like, yeah, we should do a post-quantum VRF. And we was always like one of the things we were going to get around to. And we never got around to it, but, uh, now that, you know, there's the right people, I think the time has come. And what I would love to do, see if we can do it as like an LFDT project, because we're working with the Linux Foundation. I don't know if you know about the Nightstream project that we did with Linux Foundation, but that's where we're doing all the lattice-based crypto. So we implemented lattice fold and, you know, and we wrote it all in Rust and we have a really beautiful working implementation of it. And we've been building it as a consortia. So we're getting like Stanford to come in and all these other guys to come in. It'd be a lot of fun to see if we can get Algorand and just say, hey, let's do a standard post-quantum VRF and then talk about the whole stack. And so all the underlying primitives that go into it, harden them, you know, get them to be much more efficient, get a reference Rust implementation and then a reference Agda or Lean Blueprint for it. And then it becomes kind of a canonical library that everybody can use, because it just makes no sense to roll your own crypto and everybody builds their own implementation. In an age of fable and mythic and these new infosec tools, somebody's gonna fuck it up. And especially when you're dealing zero knowledge work, it's catastrophic, the bug. So to me, it makes a lot of sense to bring a collection of people together and say, hey, let's get this done. And then it becomes a reference library that everybody can use. Because the real magic is in the layer above that, how you apply the crypto for your DAP and DeFi ecosystem, how you integrate it into your particular consensus algorithms and things like that. And our interest is primarily on the lattice-based folding side. And we're also very interested in seeing if there's anything salvageable from the fully homomorphic encryption world. Because they have all these incredible libraries that exist that they've worked on for like 10 or 15 years. And the math is roughly the same. The libraries are roughly the same. There may be some translation point that we can pull in and then we get to reuse an enormous amount of code. We're basing our applied crypto libs on the original Falcon team C implementation. With that said, there's some requirements that we have. And you guys probably have different requirements that you want to do. We can chat about it because I do think there's so much things could align, especially not just on Falcon because we want to have a crypto agility as a property of the system. Cause these new schemes, they're maturing but we don't know the future. They can be quantum resilient, but classical vulnerable. Like we don't know what can happen. So much so that things like TLS use this hybrid signature schemes now. But that's one. The other thing I was thinking the other day that will be great to chat with you guys is around the standards that we are going to expect from. things like the hardware wallets, how to derive seeds, keep the same words and derive seeds for this new crypto schemes. There are certain things that are going to get lost. I've been chatting with Chris about this. That whole property of harden versus soft derivation that we do with it's not an there's not a known path to do that. And most people we don't know what is the scheme is going to win. So it's a bit early to put all the eggs in one basket, but there's probably some agnostic derivation schemes that could benefit everybody. And we are releasing native Falcon accounts, but we're kind of waiting. We're not going to have hardware wallets because we don't want to roll out our own. standard without aligning with everybody else because then there'll be no interoperability like anybody moving from a wallet from ecosystem to ecosystem will sort of be there's so much friction it doesn't benefit anybody. Yeah I mean the same properties that make lattices resistant to a Shor's algorithm make it notoriously difficult non-trivial to do key derivation you know so again you gain a magical mathematical property but then you give up something on the other side. That said I do believe there's some work in the FHE world that could be ported over to allow key derivation to exist in a slightly different way and so the idea is that you have an on-chain vending contract and it's basically an FHE contract and you trigger it and then it generates a new key pair for you and so instead of having a direct derivation chain where you go from 24 keywords you have some sort of chain of evidence and then you're able to trigger like a generative box. So we did look at that I looked at open FHE in particular and I was trying to figure out like at what threshold what order of magnitude reduction do these on-chain artifacts become pretty cost effective to do and we're not quite there yet we need about another thousand x in reduction of compute but then we could start entertaining that what's really nice is then your entire blockchain can actually hold a key. So you know we run into the Cardano treasury I don't know how deep you got when you're working with us on like SIP 1694 or any of the Cardano stuff we were working on but the treasury you know it's going to hold third-party assets the challenge is that if the treasury was holding Bitcoin or other things you can't just put private keys on the blockchain itself so you need some sort of like control structure or delegated authority for that but if you had an FHE box you could actually have the blockchain have control And the access control for that is a governance action. So people go and do a bunch of things. It happens within the on-chain enclave, and then the enclave generates a signature or a key rotation or something like that. And it doesn't ever require you to decrypt it to facilitate that. So this idea that a blockchain can hold a private key and it can be public, but private at the same time is like a super cool, interesting thing from FHE. And that would completely resolve some of these other things like HD wallets or shared secrets or recovery phrases or other things like that without relying on something. But again, happy to take a look. And I know that we'd been talking back and forth. I wouldn't wear that on your side, you guys actually wanna do it. We were waiting for kind of like a publication to come out because I figured if Chris or somebody was really serious that the guy's a monster, he publishes papers like crazy, you'd go just. You know write it down and say okay, this is what we're gonna do and then we look at it and say like oh, okay We're is this compatible and if it is hey, let's go and let's figure out an implementation and do a bunch of work with that But I tell you what i'll i'll Fork falcon tonight. Take a look and i'm gonna go talk to neko or quillis Who's doing the implementation lead for a night stream and be a lot of fun to see if we can actually use the outer proof as falcon? um And what that looks like and what the size of it is and uh, It'll be really cool to see if we can build a validation contract a verification contract on midnight For that and what what that looks like. Uh, so i'll uh, i'll let you know and uh, it's great to see again You know, I I always enjoy you know I've been in space so long like everybody has worked at i-ho at some point and they either had a positive or negative experience But you know, we were like the rite of passage that you have to get through for the for this type of work So it's always good to see you next day, which you were floating around and congratulations on become the cto of algorand It's a phenomenal organization stacy's great. And uh, that's uh, that's a great cryptocurrency And we have a tremendous amount of respect for it here at input output Awesome. Thanks. Thanks so much. Awesome. And uh, I enjoyed my time and and uh, I owe you a lot and uh, it's all A lot of things to you as well I like hardano still I still like to touch base and and if you want if if you want to Speak with chris maybe and you want to Talk crypto and see if there is Alignment somewhere happy to to set up set something up and and get you in front of chris and discuss ideas and and Yeah Hey, I just sent you a message over slack You may be still in our slack in one of the shared channels that we have from d-rec Can you see if you got the the pm for me? Oh, yeah, I got it. Oh, okay. All right, so you're in my contact awesome Yeah, all right. We'll talk offline

Now this is fire. Yeah, we're in the stage where the crypto space itself is unifying and finding solutions that are synergistic and Interoperable to everything, you know This is awesome to be honest. So like to me is I've been kind of crying out loud that You know divided leadership leads to divided communities and in the silos and everything and you know, bring up in here from algo Charles We got Alex from CF, you know, dude, like it's up. It's about the collective effort dude And even though I talk a lot of shit on the internet, you know, like I gotta instigate people I've got to instigate people to get certain conversations going. This is fire. But um Yo, Alex you you've been I know you just just came up and stuff. We were yapping about Several other things regarding second cry and blah blah earlier And then Bruno came up, they also chatted about shit that I have no idea what the hell they were just talking about, elliptic curves, and holy shit, I'm moving, I'm the facilitator of the situation, but how are you doing dude? I'm doing good man, I came into the space just because I finished packing most of my apartment into boxes, bought a move, and then I just see, I just see a whole bunch of peeps and you have Phil Charles, and I'm like, who's Bruno, and I click, it's like, oh, this is the CDO of Algorand Foundation, it's like pretty awesome. I didn't understand a lot of the deep crypto stuff myself, I do know homomorphic encryption is pretty cool in the sense that you have two data sets that speak to each other without revealing information, but that's pretty much it, but doing good, we've got a second heatwave hitting us in Europe right now, and you're taking off, where you going? I just see the other side of the city. I see that the Orion Fund thing, I know Charles is aware of it, you're aware of it obviously, the Orion Fund submissions, I'm going to try and keep the conversation going obviously, the Orion Fund submissions just kind of are closed today, and that's pretty cool considering that it's kind of, it was a very big ask, shout out to Samiz, known him for a long time, and so how do you feel about that? How do you guys feel about that Charles, about Orion Fund and the processes that it's about to lead into investment into Cardano Ventures?

Well, I mean, I'm like Dr. Hibbert, I was like, after I own 5% of the steakhouse, I have no problem with it. Now that it's approved, I'm on the other side where obviously IO Ventures are going to go and talk to them and say, hey, we're probably the most likely to succeed because of our pedigree legacy and the things that... Merit. Merit. Pure merit base. And so it probably makes sense to us to be the anchor investment for a collection of things like Pogan, for example, is going up for fundraising. And I think that's a foregone conclusion that that's going to work. I really, it would be who the Ryan to get five or 10 investments in their anchor portfolio that showcase the best of Cardano and the innovations of Cardano. Even if they're token investments, it's just you got to, whenever you start a new fund, you really got to say, hey, what's this fund about? Like in C fund, the VC that I set up, you know, our largest investment actually ended up being not even in crypto currencies. You know what company it was? No, it's not. It was colossal. the company that brought back the Wooly Mammoth. It's working on bringing back the Wooly Mammoth. It's brought back the Direwolf and everything. We got in at a crazy valuation. Now it's worth $12 billion, the company. We had this amazing portfolio where all of our non-crypto stuff did incredibly well. My Immortal is another company in the biotechnology world and then the Wooly Mammoth company. You got to get some anchor investments. It would be nice if those anchor investments were actually Cardano related. They have strong reasons why they have to stay in the Cardano ecosystem. One of the most disheartening things when you do a cryptocurrency investment is they say, oh, we're going multi-chain. Then you wake up and like 90% of the app has moved over to a different ecosystem. You're the Cardano fund, but then you've put the money somewhere else. That's a problem. I think Orion needs to build that initial portfolio, make sure the people that they build in are anchored to Cardano in some way beyond just some money. They have a philosophical alignment or a brand and reputational alignment where they really can't pivot. Then when you have that nice anchor portfolio, then if the portfolio succeeds, then you remove the stigma. The number one VC problem we have in Cardano right now is if you go to Valley, they're like, oh, why would you build on Cardano? That's like a waste of an ecosystem. There's nothing there. There's nothing going on. No one succeeded from Cardano. Midnight helps move the conversation a little bit, but then they say, well, it's successful despite Cardano because Charles put money into it and he's putting his own bankroll into it, but a normal venture can't succeed. So you need about three to five breakthroughs that are diverse in terms of the strategy, the founding team and other things. They all have to reach unicorn status and get to about a billion valuation. Then they have to be differentiated, meaning they do something unique, new, and different from just the core resident debtors. So you're like, Pogan brings Bitcoin DeFi. Oh, okay, all the UTXO guys are getting together and they're doing DeFi together. Okay, yeah, it kind of makes sense. RealFi is like a microfinance play and all the yield comes from outside of the cryptocurrency space. So if we're in a bear market, it's great bear market product, and it has a bank, the unbanked lens, and that feels a little different than other things that have come before. So, you know, you have different stories and narrative and they succeed in different economic conditions. So if you build a portfolio like that out, then you have a pretty good possibility of changing the narrative over the horizon.

The other thing that needs to be done, and, you know, I will talk to the Orion guys about this, but IO, you know, we opened up the office in Argentina and that's been an overwhelming success. And, you know, just actually yesterday, Jeremy Elari from Circle invited our people from our Argentina office to hang out with them. So the Argentina team spent time with the Circle team and JJ's gonna talk to their commercial lead now. Uh, that's just the dividends you get from having that footprint, but Argentina is way off the beaten path. It's not part of the VC chain. So really the big four in America or Miami, Austin, New York city, and a Silicon Valley, it would be nice to see if we can get a footprint like the footprint we have in Argentina in one or more of those jurisdictions, because then you have a place to park EIRs. You have a place to do hackathons on a rolling basis. You have a place to do workshops and showcase, and you just have like, if you're a Cardano builder, you get to use this office, you get to come on in. It doesn't cost a lot, and it has a massive brand builder, uh, for that. Cause you go from the, Oh, they were hot in 2021 and they reached a hundred dollar, a billion dollar valuation. And then they were also ran, uh, to actually there's still stuff going on. And it's still a viable ecosystem. And look at all this cool and interesting stuff that people are building. The other thing is you always have, always have a place to broadcast stuff from like every two weeks we do a workshop presentation and are usually across Shane event in the Argentina office. We've had, I think 20 events in that office. There's somewhere around there. And if you look at all the logos of people we work with, some are big companies. Some are other cryptocurrencies like Solana avalanche and so forth, and some are Cardano native, but we were able to bring all that together. So these are some of the things that right off the top of my head, I think are fast follows to the proposal of kind of a strategy of how we can syndicate some things and a strategy of how they're going to get an anchor portfolio. And then what I'd like to see is for them to take a step up and have a real conversation about what is the long-term path to change the brand of perception of Cardano as a Mergo steps back, there's now a commercial vacancy. That's kind of a good thing because it gives us a fresh blood to look at the same problem, but we have to be intellectually honest about where the perception is at and where we want the perception to go. And so if we, we can consolidate a strategy together, we can put some real money behind it and within one or two cycles, we should be able to completely resolve that. because the technology is here. If I can validate a Groth 16 proof on Cardano efficiently, if I can scale extended UTXO and do tons of concurrent things and have two, 300 events in one transaction, if I have Leos come and we can do two to 500 transactions per second, we have direct line of sight, we have fast finality coming in a fast follow with Paris, and the partner chain's paradigm is turning on, and on chain governance just about to go through its second major iteration, we don't have a technology problem or a DevEx problem anymore. That's done. It's here. It works. We now have a distribution problem. That's the world that Orion lives in. They're not going to go figure out StarStream and get agents working on Cardano. They're not going to do that, but what they will do is they will help. be part of the conversation to solve that perception problem and let us basically know, hey, let's be honest here. What do we need to fix? And they're the new guys. And so they're not connected to the past. They don't have any ego about it. They're not responsible for it. So they're in a very unique position to kind of say, okay, objectively speaking, these are the kinds of things you need to correct. And then what we can do is have a conversation at the pentad level and when executive function comes at that level and be honest about, you know, what are we prepared to do to fix that problem?

A hundred percent. Cardano suffers from distribution and distribution is non-adversarial, non-tribalistic when it comes to the products and services that are to be put out to consumers, right? Through incentivized marketing funnels and aligning incentives to conversion and all type of stuff. But Alex, I was going to say, I really want to hear what you said. Yeah, I said it's hand up. Yeah, go ahead. I mean, he's over on the other side of it. They were pivotal in putting this whole thing together. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. That's why I'm like super pumped. Okay. Hold on. I got it. I got to say this. I'm super pumped that we got Charles up in here. Alex, you know, we've got all this in my first from all these other things. This is what's really important, guys. You know, we hold spaces. We converge with each other on a degenerate type of fucking space, but it's really cool when you got the validation from, you know, the people at the top. And I'm going to call you that because that's exactly it. We look up to you guys. So anyway, go ahead, Alex.

Yeah, so Charles said a bunch of things, but I think one thing I took away is Carano needs an ecosystem support for ventures to thrive within like, you know, transactions on chain, economic value to them as a firm, and then just general kind of bringing in liquidity and drawing people in and keeping them here because. the tech because they can do things here with Cardano stuff that they can't do elsewhere. That is the ultimate moat, I guess. The cool thing with Drapin, it's funny that it's called Orion, is it's kind of in a way, it has the opportunity to be the center of venture building in Cardano, where you have the Orion fund, you have Comeda Labs, which is a venture studio, you have obviously Draper Dragon with the deployable fund, Draper University with its hackathons, its incubations in Silicon Valley and things like that. The cool thing is, because Cardano is decentralized and has on-chain governance, it can actually organize itself as a market, as an attractive place to do business, not only for dApps or whatever, but to actually just make money and to use the chain for what it's worth. The cool thing is, you could probably plug more regional or more thematic types of players into this universe. You still have a bunch of VCs deploying on Cardano. People are looking at Cardano because of potential follow on investments with the fact that a vehicle like Draper and Orion specifically can crowd an investment. So there's that five billion dollars of external LPs that they're looking to bring on as part of the proposal. And we're generally getting positive signals from other VCs that see this and are interested and curious to see how they can work with us, different players in the ecosystem, and find ways to service builders in specific verticals, whether this be RWA, Bitcoin DeFi, enterprise stuff, or whether this be purely regional or local. And places where we already have a presence, we should use these. Solano SuperTeams has done this super, super well. That's how Textars operates, where they open up cities and bring communities of builders together. So Cardano really has an awesome opportunity right now. I'm pretty hyped to see how we can organize ourselves in terms of domains. We have, to some extent, covered the domain of venture acceleration in the ecosystem with Orion. When you look at alpha growth, that's clearly looking at bringing in some form of domain expertise when it comes to DeFi and liquidity deployment. And we can find these domains and delineate them within the ecosystem. I don't know, so to speak, that you can bring together. Whether this be infrastructure, tooling, or whatever, you can see who is doing the work in these places. We can get organized in this way. And we can flip that switch on pretty quickly. because we have on-chain governance and a structure to how we do this, and we can actually figure out what Ethereum has started to figure out ultimately more than 10 years where you're seeing the Ethereum foundation and spinoffs and things like that organized around things like other labs, Ethereum institutional, et cetera, et cetera. I think I've seen four or five, say, domain breakaways that serve as an executive function or are going to try to serve as an executive function on Ethereum. The cool thing is that took them 10 years and they're doing this in a haphazard way with no on-chain governance, no community determining where the Ethereum foundation spends its money, whereas what we have is an on-chain government, clear rules, a treasury, and the ability to organize ourselves into domains. That's what I'm pretty keen in seeing is teams collaborating and ensuring that they can serve a particular part of Corano's digital economy. And we can replicate Orion in many different places, but we can replicate that type of function for various domains. And that's pretty cool to think that we could probably get this done within the year and set sail in 2027, organized and ready to allocate capital in the right domains for the right things in the right amounts, whether adoption related things or maintenance or purely governance spend, right? Like, do we actually know how much the cost of governance is and could or should be? So looking at Corano's digital economy, and I think we can actually do this. So pretty excited. And Draper's got some really cool stuff cooking. It's pretty pumped to see the announcement from the foundation, MURGO and Intersect about CF taking on the token 2049 presence, and also seeing that there'll be something with Draper and Bitcoin in Singapore. So like, I think the year is looking quite good, despite the market conditions.

Yeah, and actually, the other wild card is alpha growth. If we can get some form of relationship and pull these guys in, because, you know, somebody has to worry about how do we get new stuff and get that stuff to be timely, relevant and do interesting things. And somebody has to worry about how do we accelerate the stuff that we have and get them basically integrated into the broader DeFi world, you know, and the first step Pentad was just let's get the wiring done because we were badly missing things like Circle and Layer Zero and Oracle. Oracle. Yeah, it was tough. And I'm not gonna lie, it was tough. And we got that done. I mean, the issue is the space is quite user-less, And so getting it done at the right price is the challenge. And I think we did the best with what we had and, uh, you know, a lot of superheroes stepped up in that process. It was an all hands process. It was not by means one company. It was a lot of people had to work together and make that happen. Uh, and, uh, that was awesome, but that then unlocks the next stage, which is how does Cardano DeFi differentiate itself, become something new, distinct and interesting above and beyond what Solana has done and what Ethereum has done. If it's just a copy paste, it's a race to the bottom. Uh, so you have to pay for mercenary TVL the minute that somebody else has a slightly better deal, you know, all the volume just collapses. So you need something else there. So, uh, you having these two firms like the Draper ecosystem, but then stuff like alpha growth as well, you start having a much more holistic conversation. and about what is required for these things to get where they need to go. And on IO, kind of what we're doing is we're moving towards a venture studio model and we've been doing that for a long time but now this is the last year where we're finally there and the Haskell node next year is gonna be in different hands. There's a whole spin-out process over the next nine months to do that. So while we're still gonna do science stuff at IOR and ARC and build prototypes and participate blueprint, you now have a collection of node builders that are in different hands. So we're gonna be building ventures. Real Fine, Pogan and Midnight are the three ones of Fast Falls, Midnight City but we have a lot of ventures and every year I'd like to do two or three. So talk about commercializing the platform and bringing users in, that's what we're doing here at Input Output now. So we need partners like Draper and Alpha Growth and others to come in and kind of pair with what we do and I honestly believe that those partners would then be able to help us accelerate that. And we don't need a lot of wins. We just need about, I'd say three to five and then we'll be in a position where basically Cardano has enough growth that people organically say, hey, Cardano is exciting and different. I really like what these guys are doing because there's some things here that you can't buy or replicate. You can't buy the decentralized governance or replicate that. You can't buy extended UTXO or Ouroboros or other things and the legacy and the 24 seven uptime or the last 10 years or the history of what we've done. These are things you earn through years and years and years of merit. And so if you pair that with a healthy DeFi ecosystem, it's an obvious bet, hey, we need to go and be part of this.

And I liken it to Enthropic versus OpenAI. You know, Enthropic from the very beginning, they had a rigid philosophy about how AI should be constructed and they followed that rigid philosophy. And now all these... other people like OpenAI and Grok and Gemini, they were chasing a bouncy ball and rapidly sweeping. And, you know, then there was like the Sam Altman gets fired and then rehired and then Ilya Suskiver leaves and there's all this poaching going on. Meanwhile, Anthropic just does what they do. And they said, this is the vision. This is the mission. And little by little every release, they, they started catching up. And then it got to a point where they outclassed a company that was 10 times their size and 10 times their value. And now actually they're the most valuable AI company and their models are well ahead of everybody. So there's something to be said about having a principles based approach. And by the way, they were the guys who created the AI constitution. We have a constitution, right? You know, so there's some overlap there with these types of things that a principle based approach makes a lot of sense. Um, and Cardano has that legacy and you can't buy that legacy. It's not replicatable. Vitalik can go to UTXO. it's not going to change anything. Cardano's here. And in the fact that we're starting to learn how to get efficient and effective in addition to integrity preserving means that the hockey stick will kick off. We just need three to five wins to bootstrap it. We can get those in 2027, which I believe real five pog and a midnight will be three of them. That's a huge step forward. We need two more, I'd say, and maybe it's strike, maybe it's fluid, maybe it's liquid, who knows what it's going to be. But one of these guys is going to get to a billion and they're going to get some traction. And then Cardano is going to be a beautiful platform and especially in a post-Leos world.

Yeah. And also just to chime right in here before Alex replies, I think also at the helm, the gentleman's agreement of communicating with each other when it comes to what is the utmost benefit pursuit to the ecosystem, right? You know, IOG, CF, Amerigo, you know, the entities at the top at any given time, it's okay. We don't need your approval, but you know, we're living in the same neighborhood. We're paying to the same OHA or whatever. And it's just like a conversation always. Go ahead. Sorry. You got to understand that, especially with respect to the CFIO relationship, one of the things that we've mastered, which is uncommon in political discourse or business discourse, but it's actually common in the fortune 500 is we can be extremely aggressive and have strong opinions about things and be adversarial in certain respects on certain things. As you know, I definitely have very strong opinions. That's bulkheaded to a particular topic, but then on other topics like the pentad or things going on with Draper or other things like that, we can actually see eye to eye and there's productive dialogue. that's going on. Politics is training us to hate each other universally. So I disagree with you somewhere so I have to hate you for everything and disagree with you for everything. But you got to understand something in the business world is compartmentalized are currently in patent infringement lawsuits and they're fighting each other and they're having a brutal bare knuckles brawl. But at the same time Samsung makes memory for the and they got technology and hardware that their competitors use. On one hand suing a company. On the other hand you're also working with that company and they have early access to the iPhone and they get to make joint earnings and everything. That's kind of the relationship there and it is what it is but it's the nature of decentralization. And if you're going to be an adult. and be a mature person, you have to be able and willing to have a relationship like that. You're never going to agree with people on everything. And some things are deeply philosophical. And, and it is what it is. And you know, some people know I agree. The reason why I bring this up to the ecosystem, though, to make that a universal, and things like the pentad, things like how to commercialize things like the conferences, like what's going on token 2049, we're gonna be right there. And those are areas where we can easily collaborate, and people are excited to collaborate.

I'm glad that you brought this up, Charles, because they make fun of me for saying certain things like, because I got my own little business, whatever, yeah. And that's like, you're compartmentalizing, I went to school for engineering, being able to problem solve, blah, blah, blah, you know, and the internet doesn't compartmentalize shit, the internet in looking to problem solve, the internet is looking to engagement farm, and so on. So I'm really glad that you brought up in the comparison of like, Samsung and Sony or Samsung and Apple or something that even though they're like in lawsuits and have their differences, they still have hardware that are, you know, earning revenue to both companies. And it's because it's business. So, you know, I hope that this space for who's listening or in the future, whatever, it's a hey, you don't have to be aligned 1000% is the North Star in the vision that everybody has to align with, regardless of the microcosm differences that are in between that are compartmentalized to not express themselves out to like the social sphere, in which then it becomes like, hey, you literally are throwing your dirty laundry on the front street. And then you're trying to ask me to not make fun of you, because there was a poop stain on your underwear. You know what I mean? Like, like a lot of these stuff. is so socially inclined right now that's another reason why I want to move the dialogue into a non-public channel like X and move it into a Cardano only channel where you have to prove you're a to holder and there's an organized process to have a conversation because you just the problem is that when conversations become grandstanding then they're self-sabotage it well the goals have changed you know it's it's like okay my job is performative theater where I have to show that I am the maximal supporter of this position other than it's not my job to go make a deal or compromise or agree on a vision and an outcome so when you look at modern politics everything's about winning and everything's about your side being right in the other side being wrong nothing is about an outcome nope no Democrats and Republicans come together say how do we make America's GDP grow 5% per year that's the outcome we want they don't do that We, the American people, would like it. It becomes about Republicans and Democrats, and then their bipartisanship. If you have a platform that they promote the controversy, the outrage, the rage-baiting, the differences amongst people, the platform works against your ability to converge to a proper conversation. Now the debate's going to be probably less of, let's move from X to something else, and it's going to be more of, well, what is that something else, and what properties and characteristics does it have, and what level of openness does it have, and how is it regulated, and what's the oversight structure. And again, there's going to be disagreements about these things. I've been approaching it from a position of pragmatism. With Midnight, we have 49,000 people in our Discord. We've built a lot of tooling for it. We're starting to now take that tooling and compare it to Guild XYZ and collab.land and these other things from the Ethereum ecosystem, and I'm trying to figure out what can I put into play over the next three to six months to get on the road running, and it works on your phone, it works on your desktop, it's secureable, and then we can have a well-regulated conversation because we have a job to do, just like we did with the original constitution. We have to have a legitimate conversation about if and when to put in executive function into Cardano, and should it exist in this kind of pseudo-federated way, or should it be more formalized? And people are all, well, the pseudo-federated way is really nice. The problem is, guys, that you can game that. Not a lot of people have to privately get together behind the scenes to have an enormous amount of influence over governance, both in soft and hard power. At the very least, they can create a reality where you'll never get funded. And so if people know that if they vote against or piss off a small group of people and they'll never get funded, those group of people become beyond reproach and untouchable, which was never the intent of decentralization. So by having an explicit executive function, you actually get around that because you at least have some democratic consent. into the people that are running things as opposed to an oligarchy that actually runs things behind the scenes and gives you the illusion of democracy. So the point of a structured conversation is for us to have an honest conversation about how decentralized really are we and where are these power structures and where has governance been very good for us and where has governance been actually quite a liability. The other thing is then it allows you to start introducing the idea of some areas where you have private voting. We're starting to do this in the midnight ecosystem we're reporting some of four into midnight. We've been having some conversations about anonymous voting but the idea is that if you're voting a certain way and you're afraid of retribution or being bullied if you vote that particular way then what ends up happening is either you just don't participate at all or you only participate when it's self-interest you know it benefits you so you create these reciprocal you know quid pro quo style voting patterns which were very common in patronage. back in the 19th century in America, like the Tammany Hall type of stuff. And that doesn't work very well at all. And we see a little bit of that more than we care to admit currently in cardinal governance. And why should we be any different if the political process is kind of evolving the same way? But instead of having to wait a century to clean it up, we can clean it up in one or two constitutional updates and some better technology in certain areas and different social processes. So a big thing I'm gonna be working on is this political party getting a lot of delegation and then trying to steer the conversation to a channel where we can have an adult conversation like we did with the constitution about what the updates need to be. And then once we get some convergence there, go get those things done. And then I think the next budget process and everything thereafter will be a heck of a lot easier to get through and a lot more fun, to be honest, to get through.

The last point about this is also, it'll be easier for us to separate time horizons. The problem with the budget is everything has cascaded together. So when you look at an Orion deal, that's like a three to five year gig. There's a lot of setup, there's a lot of things that have to be put together, they're gonna start deploying capital, but it's not gonna get good for 24 or 36 months at the very least, because it takes time for these things to cook and bake. When you look at things like the token 2049 conference, like with the Cardano Foundation, try to do it later with the takeover, that is an event, it's near horizon, it's a few months away. Both of these live in the same decision space and infrastructure, they shouldn't, they're very different things. Things like the conference are attached to a broader strategy, and it's an execution point of a campaign for a broader strategy. So then that strategy has to be set, it's a multi-year strategy, it has specific outcomes and goals that have measurable KPIs, and then we're making a decision on quarter by quarter basis of what is the most efficient use of capital. Other things are, you plant it, but it takes a few years for the tree to grow. So research is much. like this and venture capital is much like this. So at IOR, quantum resistance, something we care about. Bruno was just in here. We'll talk offline, but we could form a coalition with Algorand and Stanford and a dozen others and come up with this beautiful multi-year post-quantum strategy. Well, that's not going to bear fruit until like 2030, but when it does, it's like Ouroboros is very powerful thing and it works beautifully for us, right? So you have to have in your decision space the ability to accommodate these types of things as well. It's really hard to do that without a formal executive function. Direct democracy doesn't work very well for that because the people won't be around. If you change out your leadership set very frequently, people will have voted for something where they're not even around to see it being implemented or any of these things or even understand why that decision was taken. Whereas when you have executive function, you get some continuity and consistency and institutions can carry that through. through a multi-year roadmap, like look at IO, we've just always been here. We've been here since the beginning, so we know everything, not because we're geniuses, but because of experience. If you come and say, hey, there's this thing that happened in Cardano back in 2018, I'm able to go pull up my emails or my Slack and I roll it and I just look through it and I say, oh yeah, okay, just like I was talking to Bruno. So what's the first thing I did? I searched my Slack and I found that Bruno's still in the Slack. So I'm able to send Bruno a message, right? But he hasn't worked for me for like five years. So that's the value of an institution because the institution's stability means that you have institutional knowledge and that is required for long arc things, instability and consistency. If a person's investing or building, they need both those functions. If I'm betting my business on your protocol, I can't take the risk that your protocol is gonna be gone in two years. And I can't take the risk that you're gonna change radically the way that the protocol works in two years time. There has to be a consistency and a stability behind that before I consider that to be a reasonable thing to put billions of dollars into. So what creates the consistency is executive function, long standing institutions and a predictability about how the governance operates and what things do. And when you do make big controversial changes, they're made with a considerate deliberation as opposed to just a spur of the moment thing. Otherwise the whole thing just basically falls apart and people start questioning the ecosystem as a whole.

I think like just the willingness to cooperate and work together on things that ultimately make standards that lead to interoperability and just fire altogether. Today's amazing. Just from a space host, you know, little website thing. To have you guys all up here and chat it up and all this insightful shit is fire. Is it cool if I like open the stage for people to ask you questions, Charles and Alex and Phil? and Micro and all the engineers up here. All right go ahead Alpha. What's up Esko, how you doing? Hey Phil, Charles nice to see you again. I briefly wanted to make some points connected to what Alex was talking about and also the things you have been talking about so far Charles regarding infrastructure you know the set of tools, foundational utilities and whatnot that makes Cardano a robust technology you know for vast amount of solutions to be built on top of it and you know I've been here for a very long time I've been here since 2021. been in a couple of species with you, Charles. And I remember back in 2023, we were in a space and we were talking about the necessary things that I think we're still running Intersect at least it was in its deployment fees there about maybe 23 or 24, I think it's 24. And I mentioned something there, which I think it's in that space, which I think it is very important and I don't think we talk about it enough as an ecosystem. I mean, deploying the necessary environment and bringing in the right people for DeFi, liquidity, deployment, all that is good, although we have a vast other domains besides DeFi that I think Cardano would provide much value to. The gaming industry is one of it and so many more. I'm sorry, I think if we do not spend just as much energy, time and resources on actually attracting people into the ecosystem to explore and utilize these vast resources and utilities that we have built to create incredible things in the vast majority of domains, we will move forward as an ecosystem. And what that in my opinion means is we have to invest heavily on proper marketing for Cardano in my opinion all these beautiful things that we talk about do you have a question or do you have a whole rant and I've respectfully no no it's not really I'll wrap it up very soon yeah just I just need uh Charles you can speak uh about this or whoever I don't know um I just think that if we do not invest heavily in um structured marketing and actually getting people across different um nationalities communities to see and explore these resources and what and what value they provide to bringing us to a truly decentralized web um we would continue to speak about all these things without much progress.

Let me ask you let me ask you some questions. That's all I have. I'm gonna elucidate a point here. Okay I hear the marketing thing all the time and I agree there needs to be marketing but the devil's in the details. What's more important to you um the TVL of Cardano or the amount of transactions per block that Cardano has? I'm just going to ask you a series of either or questions. The answers don't matter too much. I'm just trying to get to a point. So which which one is more important to you? Uh sorry I'll come again. TVL transactions we have each block. Um I think I'll see TVL. Or what about this um the amount of dApps that are deployed or the value of the top five dApps? Uh value. Um the amount of nodes involved in running the network or the transactions per second? Right. The amount of nodes because that brings decentralization which I value. The the amount of nodes uh independent node implementations or the size of the main node implementation and how many organizations. In other words is there 10 companies working on one code base and they're all independent and they have balanced governance or there are three independent companies working on three independent code bases? Which one do you think is better? Uh sorry I don't understand the question. So let's say the Haskell node we wake up tomorrow and instead of IO being the big company there's 10 independent companies that are maintaining that. And so there's 10 companies working on one code base versus what's been pushed right now where we have a go node with Blink and the. tomorrow new node that's in Rust. Which one do you think is better for the ecosystem? I think having a diverse amount of nodes across different technologies is good. Because that would attract builders from different backgrounds in technology. So here's the point. There are legitimate differences of opinions on every one of these topics and more. And if you ask Twitter, the only thing they care about is the coin market cap. Where are you at? What's the token price? So there's legitimate differences of opinion on all these things. So when people say marketing, marketing, marketing, what they're actually saying is there's a particular set of answers to a particular set of questions that I have in my head and I want somebody to go and broadcast that. What they're not saying is marketing for this specific feature or this specific thing and there's community-wide consensus on it. So the first thing you do before you can have effective marketing is there has to be community-wide consensus on what are the core KPIs that matter to Cardano and Where are we and where are we going and why are we gonna get there? So I run a venture studio and one of the things I tell everybody in my venture studio who wants to be a CEO for me Is I say okay There's two things you have to do if you're gonna survive as a CEO for me in my venture studio one Collective delusion you have to be able to convince people that whatever you're doing You're the best person in the world for it and you're somehow going to win So when there's 20 something year old Charles Hoskinson who doesn't speak Japanese and had never been to Japan I was able to convince people even though I had no money that somehow I was gonna raise a bunch of money in Japan and Built this thing called Cardano and they're like, please go ahead and take a job with me Yeah, it was a lot harder back in 2015 But I was pretty good at the delusion thing and every great CEO is the second thing and more pertinent to this conversation is the ability to Start with the end in mind. So what do I tell my ventures? I say pretend three years in the future that you have just closed a hundred million dollar a billion dollar valuation round Then work your way backwards To the set of milestones you had to go through in the set of KPIs you had to satisfy to make that outcome happen So then we're working with an end of mine. I said, all right I'm gonna give you the first two milestones on my dime Then after that we got to figure out every other one of them But you got to build a team build a vision and all this other stuff and that has to pass muster So let's look to the future. Okay, so let's say we all agree on a set of KPIs in Cardano And we all agree with an outcome so I can change the questions. I ask you so I say, okay, alpha You have a magic wand and you can look to the future. The year is July 14th What would be an ideal outcome for Cardano? What are your top three things to top five things that if we achieve those things, we made it? So it's an open question. What do you think those top three or five things would be? The first one would be scale, scaling, having more transactions being settled by second. I know I initially said TVL, but I don't want to go down the rabbit hole on why I said that. But I think that's important. Also, all the third-party integrations that allow builders to build robust technologies like oracles and whatnot. What else? Those are the two that comes to the top of my head. I mean, there's more you can see how that starts to get a little difficult because eskos and phil and micro and alex They're going to probably say slightly different things So you need to use governance and what you need to do is you need to first lock that in with some form of community consensus Then what marketing is about is doing two things First marketing is convincing you that these are the things that matter And other things don't matter. So what that vision is Whatever you've just said is the single most important thing in the cryptocurrency space The second thing is convincing people that our strategy to get there is going to be awesome That's how you do it So you say okay this when steve jobs came out with the iphone. He said in three years time This is how everybody's going to be using a computer you use it with their fingers They're going to have it in their phone. They're going to carry it with them everywhere It's the ultimate mobile computer and here's how we get there and here's our vision and then everybody bought into it And they all bought the iphone and created the mobile revolution, right? So so that's what mark great marketing is. Otherwise you get into me too syndrome We also do high tps. We also have smart contracts. We also have this and you're like, yeah, okay And then you're like the zoom to the ipod. You're just an also ran and there's nothing really differentiating you from the pack you win By having a compelling interesting differentiated vision Saying that that vision will take time to achieve and then convincing people that you have a roadmap to get there And there's something unique and special about this project That is different from the rest of the projects to get there if you give that to a marketing agency 10 out of 10 times they can make a beautiful campaign They can package it for social media. They can create shareables They can get people excited about it and then a lot of people come together and they say yeah I joined because I really believed in that vision. So what did I do in the beginning? I said, hey, this is going to be the chain that banks the unbanked This is going to be the chain that decentralization is built into the the technology itself itself, the longer it runs, the more decentralized it gets naturally. This is going to be the chain that embraces science in formal methods, so that chain is going to have those properties at its core, and you're going to thank me in 10 years time when everybody else is getting hacked and vibe-coded to death, and we're relatively resistant to it. Those were visions 10 years ago, and they've been mostly realized, or we're in the process of realizing them. When you go back to those roots, people get very excited about it, because then it's not about these things where it's very controversial, or very blase, like, oh, well, we're 15,000 TPS, and they're 22,000 TPS, so who's better? Well, we're extended UTXL, so our 15 is better than their 22. That's like saying, well, this AMD processor operates at 4.2 gigahertz, but the Intel processor operates at 4.1 gigahertz, and the user's just sitting there like, okay. Like what does that even mean? Like how does that actually impact? Instead, you're like, well, you could now use this thing to do this amazing thing. Look at this amazing thing. Oh, okay. Now I get it. That's really cool. So what executive function and getting the right decision channels, the first thing you do is we, for the first time in the history of the ecosystem, get a consensus on the end goal for the next five years, just like we had with Byron and Basho and Shelley and Gogan and Voltaire and these things, and the metrics and KPIs required to get there. And we can put that into the preamble of the constitutional update. Then everybody's drinking from the same well. Then every single D-Rep, they actually have a razor rule now. When they look to fund something in this treasury, they can go to the proposal and say, make the case to me, is this going to speed up, slow down, or not care about where we want to go? Because if you're not, if we're not spending this money towards our end goal, it's got to be cut. Because right now everything's a priority because there's no growth goals, right? So everybody can make the case that their thing is important. Everybody's thing is important. Pebble is important. Harmonic is important. Go is important. But you're supposed to, with a D-Rep or a budget process, make priorities. So if you had to pick, what is your number one priority, what is it? And you have to have some sort of objective structure that you can look to, talk around, and then you can use it to make a fair decision. Otherwise, it's just your favorites, or it's your familiarity, or it's your area of expertise versus not. And there may be tremendously important things, but because it's not your area of expertise, you ignore them or undervalue them, or you might just hate the team that's behind that. So I agree with you. Marketing is absolutely needed, and it has to be done in anger. But there's a way to get to good marketing. And the good news is we have 40 plus years of Silicon Valley to look to, and 40 plus years of incredibly exciting ventures to look to. to. You can take a page out of the AI book. My entire adult life, I have done AI stuff. When I was at Front Range Community College, I did AI stuff at 17. When I was at Metropolitan State College there, I did AI stuff. I did AI stuff at CU Boulder. Professionally, I did AI stuff. Natural language processing. I did work with reinforcement learning. I wrote a lot of prologue code back in the day. I worked with all kinds of strange neural nets. In my entire adult life, I was told AI is going to be the next big thing. No one gave a shit. No one invested in it. The fastest way to get a rejection letter was AI, going in and doing it. Then suddenly chat GPT comes out and all these other things come out and people just got it. It was magic. It just blew everybody away. A small company could become a trillion-dollar company because of that thing. So what matters is the vision thing about where does this go and taking people along the journey and once you come along that journey and you understand it, everybody will say, yeah, this is the next big thing. I got to get on board this train now. And these guys are special. They're the ones who actually know how this is going to work and they know the future. I got to get with these. These are the only people that are going to get that done. If you can create that, you create a self-fulfilling prophecy because you put up a beacon and all the people that think the same way, they get attracted that way. They do the work and in five years it gets done and you deliver the vision and it's there. And you have a trillion dollar valuation and everything is hunky dory, right? But you can't get to that until you create community-wide consensus. And we have this thing called governance. So we have to use the governance tools to create the growth consensus, the end goal consensus. And then once we have that, it's self-evident how to do the marketing. Like Draper, you go and you find killers. You go to top three to top five marketing firms, real, real good firms with great pedigrees, instead of coming in and say, make the case that we're the best cryptocurrency. You go in and say, we have this beautiful vision for the future. Here's how we're going to get there. We want you to help us tell the story in the most convincing way possible. And they look at that and they say, wow, this is really exciting. We think we're going to be able to do a great job with this brief. And they'll take it, they'll get excited about it, and they will do a great job.

When Steve Jobs turned around marketing at Apple, when he took over for the second time in 1997, he did one of the greatest marketing turnarounds in the history of technology. Apple was a very confused company. They had the Newton and all these different product lines and they were licensing and they were doing this and that. And there were 45 different stories about Apple and they were bitter. They were at war with Microsoft and patent lawsuits and more better than Microsoft and fuck those. guys. And then Steve came back and he did three things and it transformed the entire company and made everything magic. First, he gave away all the Apple computers, the classical computers, the original Mac and everything to the Stanford Museum. He said, we're addicted to the past. The past is over. We have to look to the future. Okay. So he changed the culture overnight. The second thing he did is he focused the whole company on the iMac. And he said, we have to have a product line that reflects who we want to be and where we want to go. And third, he did the Here's to the Crazy Ones ad. It's the best technology ad of all time. I copied it when I was the CEO of Ethereum. It's still floating around YouTube. But if you look at it, it's just a minute long. And it changed overnight what a computer was. A computer in the age of Compaq and HP and Packard Bell and Gateway was a commodity. And it was a race to the bottom. Okay. It was, here are some hardware. Here are the stats. And whoever is the cheapest wins. It's a fungible commodity. He turned a computer into a lifestyle product like fashion. In fashion, you buy a T-shirt and you spend $100 for a cotton T-shirt that some guy in Vietnam made for 50 cents. Okay, I can go to Walmart and buy the exact same fucking shirt, but it doesn't have the Armani Exchange logo on it. So what he did is he made computers fashion. He actually put a lifestyle component, a symbolic component to it, which meant he could charge 20% to 30% more than HP could and Compaq could. So his margins perpetually would be higher, which gave him massive financial resources to build innovative new products like the iPod and other things, and they fit into the lifestyle product, and now it's a multi-trillion-dollar company. So you got to have a turnaround like that, and you have to look at brands and you have to say, okay, how do you make Cardano more than just a fungible, commoditizable cryptocurrency, something that is part of people's identity? When I was first doing things in the beginning, people were so loyal to the Cardano brand. We had the number one cryptocurrency brand even above Bitcoin, and people would tattoo the Cardano logo on their body, and they associated Cardano with something more than a cryptocurrency. It was a political movement. It was something there. Okay, so to get back to those first principles, the only way you're going to convince people of that is to step outside of the cryptocurrency conversation and you have to make Cardano bigger than just being a cryptocurrency. It has to be something else, and what's fun is unlike the Charles Hoskinson era, we now have all of you, which means that something else is a collective something else, and for the first time ever, you all get to build that something else, and it gets to come together, and we get to do it if we have the right utilization of the governance tools. And you know what? Whatever the hell that thing is, it could be a lot better than anything Vitalik comes up with or Anatoly comes up with or Brad comes up with. It's not that they're bad people or stupid people or badly. leaders, but no one is brighter than everyone and no one is more capable than millions of people coming together and making a decision about something. That's why I'm so obsessed with getting the governance process right and harnessing the wisdom of the crowds and getting all these components together because everything else is just execution, guys, and everybody wants you to believe that there's some sort of magic behind execution and only certain special people could do that. The reality is execution can always be bought and it's downstream of vision. If you have a beautiful, great vision, executors will want to attach themselves to that because they look at their career and they say, do I want to get rich distributing cans of Pepsi and finding ways to make screws for one cent less, or do I want to get rich building something that legit changed the world? And every single person's lives are changed because of that because I can get rich both ways. If you're an excellent executor, you will always have a job and you will always be capable. Just like if you're an excellent programmer, you'll always have a job. But it's rare to find vision that's so compelling and exciting that you just want to be part of it. This is what Elon Musk did throughout his entire career and why no one's ever been able to beat the guy. He just keeps fucking winning because they don't get it. The game he's playing is vision. He's Mr. Vision. The execution is somebody like Glenn Shotwell will do it for SpaceX and there's different people that do it for Tesla and there's different people that do it for Neuralink and now Grok. There's different people, but the guy can't lose because he's a master at convincing you he's the guy to take us to Mars and put a million people on that. When you go and look at ULA, they're like, we're going to build a rocket that's 5% cheaper and has slightly better reliability and the government will pay us for an 11-year maintenance contract on that. You'll go to Elon Musk, he's like, bitch, we're going to Mars. We're going to live on the ground because there's radiation on the surface. You're going to have robot slaves, but don't worry. You can broadcast your mind into them with motherfucking Neuralink and you'll have high-speed internet because we'll have Starlink over Mars and we'll have our own Martian internet and it's going to be completely free and open and we'll have an AI god running Mars that's going to be Grok 10 and it's going to be super smart and it's just going to run everything and we'll use nukes to go ahead and change the environment of Mars so it gets warm again and guess what? It's going to be a libertarian utopia because there's only going to be a million people on a planet half the size of Earth. Everybody gets to 10,000 acres, right? You're like, yeah, this guy. Because you can't verify. Yeah, but here's the thing, dude, it's like when he said that 10 years ago, you're like, that must be the best motherfucking pot in the world. Holy shit. I want some of that. Now you're like, dude's a trillionaire and he's got Starlink and he's got like the Optimus robots coming out and he's got the board company. And it starts becoming far more real. Yeah. Brick by brick. Yeah. You're like, this is actually happening, right? And so if you're, I remember this, I went to see you Boulder guys at the same time that Elon Musk was on his ascendancy. So his brother ran a restaurant at, in Boulder called the kitchen, his brother's a chef. So he'd come in and he'd go walk around campus and recruit people. And I ran into him a few times and there's even a famous picture of a young Charles Hoskinson with Elon Musk. So if you Google Elon Musk, Charles Hoskinson and click images, you can see an unshaven Charles there. But you know, he would just say these insane things and all these aerospace engineers Boeing would offer them like $300,000 jobs with full benefit packages. And they would go to space X and space X is like, we will pay you $42,000 a year and no benefits is like, but I just got like a $300,000 offer for Boeing to do the same job. Now it's 40. Do you want the job or not? And they're like, yes. Okay. I'll take the job at space X. because they wanted to be part of that fucking team that was going to go to Mars. They wanted to be part of some great vision to get somewhere, and he never had recruitment problems. He just got the most amazing people to come in. So marketing is always connected to vision. Either you're selling, you're better than an existing vision, or you're selling that you have a new vision. And my argument is we're not going to win if we argue that we're better than an existing vision. Why? Because it's already saturated. There's already SWE, there's already Solana, there's already Ethereum, there's already all these things. And if anybody could have done it, SWE would have done it. SWE is better Solana. They run much faster. They have a much better programming language. There's better scientists there. I've worked with them for 10 years. They're great people. There's a really smart ecosystem there. There's this incredible technology with SWE. Yet, they're not getting the Solana adoption. And so we're not going to wake up and market our way to a high TVL or transaction volume or a lot of users. We have to vision differently. And that vision has to be that if Cardano wins, something good happens for the world, the human race. And here's how we get there. And just like Musk, as you start making more progress, you start getting the exponential growth for the whole thing. We got to return to those first principles. And I think we have a path to do that. That's why we get the governance done. We get a good executive function in play. We utilize that to create a common understanding of growth and a common understanding of where we want to go. And we get another roadmap, just like we had with Byron and Shelley and Basho, because we were so unified back in that day. Remember everybody, when Shelley, when Shelley, when Gogan, when this, when this, we all had something to look forward to. We all had a vision to look forward to. Then we go to some great killers on the execution side and we say, hey, guys, come on, come on over. It's boring as fuck over there. Come on over to us and let's go win. And they'll get real excited about it. And they'll be like, yeah. We want this to work and then they'll do a phenomenal job and you're gonna wake up and the brand equity of cardano is going to be exponentially larger And people are gonna be very excited about it So that's why I haven't been so gung-ho like let's go hire this marketing firm and they're going to go figure out How to sell identity and supply chain and say cardano is good for this or cardano is good for that It's like it's like selling dell computers versus hp computers. It's like do you really feel a difference there? No, the only thing you do is look at price You say okay. Well, this one's four thousand and this one thirty nine hundred. They both have the same hardware So i'll buy the thirty nine hundred dollar one instead of the four thousand dollar one, you know And that's a race to the bottom because there's always somebody who could always offer a better price And you you like the same with buying tvl. There's all these people like we'll sell you tvl You can get a billion dollars of tvl what they don't tell you Is when you slip 50 basis points you lose all billion dollars in tvl it goes to a different network They pull it in like 30 minutes. I mean phil can tell you this I mean tell tell them about some of these horror stories that exist. Oh, no, there's there's mercenary liquidity If you won't really want to get into it, let's get into it. There's mercenary liquidity There is all sorts of predatory behavior out there like a thousand percent, you know One thing though Charles before before we go into that one. Sorry Phil for kind of kind of yeah, and that's go I got to go to the restaurant. I had to pee for like Good question, I had to take care of that one Thank you for pointing out check out real fire everyone should check out real fire this is to me the app I'm most excited about It is it is the modern meta of defy. It is exactly what Cardano defy is missing a Passive Financial vehicle No, there is no the modern meta is no longer day trading on Uniswap There's like a small small subset of people who do active position management in defy and are using defy as like a day trader 99% of funds in defy now are low risk long-term yield positions You park your funds in a morphovolt you park your funds on Athena you park your funds on eBay money You park your funds in a stable swap pool on her ever uniswap That's that's the meta. So real five to me is Finally a real financial vehicle that I can go tell my friends and family. Hey, you know you this is no active position management There's no like hey You have to worry about liquidation or you have to do this thing and reinforce your position and you have to watch this chart it's just this is a vault it's managed for you and If it performs well, then, you know, you will earn passive yield over a long period of time and that is so you managed for you

I don't know what just happened up in here. First of all, I want to say thank you, Alex, for joining the conversation. We can talk about a fucking trillion things in here, all day left and right or whatever, but I think that alignment holds a far bigger value proposition than our individual opinions and perspectives. And, you know, on the timeline, for the most part, we're always battling each other, not me and you, just everybody. We're just always fucking, oh, are you on camp A, B, or C? And we're not going to determine which camps are or whatever, but, you know, it's the main concept, you know? It doesn't matter what fucking camp you're in, as long as we have the same North Star, you know? it is imperative paramount incredibly significant that at least the north star of the entire ecosystem is something that everybody views even though we share different opinions so aside from everything i just want to say thank you alex thank you phil thank you micro thank you charles for being here thank you fucking you know homie that was here from algo earlier this is this is what it is this the single most impactful pursuit is unification and leadership and and the goal you know so yeah you you might think this is a little cringe as well no it is massively important but anyways yeah here we are so you're not going to tank me escrow i'm fucking i'm on mutual again and then anyways so i'm just kidding sorry i had to throw i had to throw bro i had to fucking throw like sorry dude but anyways what's happening is there any way i can answer my question i actually wanted to feel to respond to oh sorry uh someone who's going to speak i don't want to hug the mic very great uh i was just wanting to ask a quick question to everybody if that would be okay yeah you've been down here for a little while i look at your people i looked at your accounting shit and i was like oh no this could be questionable but i brought you up regardless bro regardless i go i i greatly i greatly appreciate it man i've been i've been in cardado since 2017 believing everything charles and everybody is is is done um had the worst day of my life today and uh damn got got hacked uh i had i had my stuff on second five And believed in somebody very stupid when my kids were around me Looking up my wallet address and had everything drained Had well over 300 and some thousand Cardano drained today My question is before everybody just says I'm stupid and you know all that stuff. Is there anything that could be possibly be done? You know that it can be verified right? I'm gonna tell you right now. Let me let me help you real quick one second five is not I got you. You know supposedly you says cook. I can't get muted. That's cool. Yeah, hold on for You know Okay, supposedly you should we can verify that shit and if you're capping That'd be crazy, bro. Send me your address you you In the second fighter and the verify that you send him yo Jason send Phil up here your address and We're gonna verify that shit because you know, no disrespect to you and your nice PFP I got a daughter to my boy. No, don't you worry? But you know the world is a crazy treacherous place It it wasn't on the actual second five as far as what happened with them. Yo, send the address, bro. I Was somebody send the fucking address that supposedly your shit got drained from You send it to him. You don't gotta say nothing, but yeah, I wouldn't yeah again I wouldn't even say we don't ask for help in spaces for a different reason. Yeah, just Scams support people Complicated dm your address use my apps that I published that is micro don't know say through app And yeah, if you were affected in that incident It will be reimbursed If you were not affected in that incident and you were fished or your friend did something or you otherwise lost funds It's extremely unlikely that you would be reimbursed and that's it I'm just just being solid because you gotta put there's a lot of Memphis are listening that will send you this and that Send the address to him. That's it. Say less and everything else will be resolved. That's like bottom line Thank you guys. I appreciate it.

Would you use Cloudflare? Yeah, sorry about that Jason You're looking you're seeing you well used Purcell yeah, we can you put the artifacts on software approve artifacts, right? Yeah, I used the proof artifacts because you for a zk proofs You need like a massive curving key and so I had to stream like a 2 gigabyte every single user who does a proof needs a two gigabyte proving key. And he's saying it through his own search. Your browser can't store two gigabytes in memory, most browsers. And so if you do the desktop app download, it's easy. You just download the Windows or Mac installer or Linux installer, you run it, you prove in like four seconds. If you do the desktop one, I have to stream two gigabytes of data to you. And I use Cloudflare R2 for that. And I do like this crazy fucking, I chunk the two gigabytes, and I stream it to like a ton of web workers. I got like 16 workers on that. Oh, dude, I gotta tell them what you do. Just send me a address. It's open source. It's open source that anyone could go see. It's just here to help people get their funds back. It's the first meaningful use of ZK on Cardano as far as I'm aware. So I'm pretty proud of it. We'll send you the address, Phil. You run into this. Cool. Charles, Charles wrote the go the original go circuit and like this very cool optimization for the go circuit. So the ZK, the proving logic, the logic which constructs the proof and the constraints. Yeah. And the circuit itself are written in go in a framework called Gnark by consensus. Like Snark, but Gnark. And compiles to Wasm. Oh, red light. Man, fuck this city, bro. Fuck. What the fuck did I run a red light? Whatever thing is hit in the background. It's all good. It's all in response to the current post on the jumbotron where you talked about implications to quantum language. Yes. You saw that. Yeah. The reason I came to this space is to talk about that to ask you. First of all, you said something about funds being managed on the platform that you said is what Cardano should, Cardano D5 or Cardano should be or look like. That phrase you made specifically. The platform that I'm talking about is called RealFi. RealFi is a new app coming out to Cardano that is like Athena, which is a very successful app in Ethereum where you park your funds and you earn more yield and you don't have to actively manage your position. Like the problem with Cardano D5 right now is say you go buy some ADA and you go buy some foo token, right, from whatever application you like, whatever their token is called. Now, what you're told to do is, okay, well, you want to use Cardano DeFi, here's DEXIS, right? So you got to go to provide liquidity and make money, you have to go put in two tokens, so you have to go get your foo token, and your ADA, and you pair them and you create an LP token. And then you put the LP token in some bolt in some like staking contract or conforming contract, and you get paid in some like farming token, right? And then what happens here is, you have to deal with market risk of actively managing your liquidity. Because if foo token goes down in price, and ADA goes up in price, you're going to lose a lot of money. If either of them diverge, or one goes up, the other stays the same, all of the any divergence in price movement between those two assets cause something called impermanent loss. which is essentially you are losing money it's called impermanent because it just because semantically it hasn't been actualized yet but it actually is permanent like in every sense of the word it's real loss and okay sure you can pray that the position rebalances by itself eventually but you know that's just the likelihood of that happening is close to zero it's the likelihood of two numbers convert two different independent numbers converging to the same number um and so yeah you have to be very active you have to watch the charts all the time you have to rebalance you have to move out your liquidity all the time move it into different pools based on where the trading volume is and all of these factors um and this is not like most people do not actively day trade stocks right you just buy that an ETF where it does all of that active management for you so real phi is like the ETF variant of b phi right okay and how exactly is this managed um then like um ai agents or no i mean one in the bag so real phi has like an allow list of the phi strategies where i think it's like alchemyx morpho usdc t bill yield sharing and then they have some uh allow list of off-chain investments like private credit markets and things like this um and so it's managed by those two things the allow list of on-chain investment portfolio and the off-chain private credit markets of the real phi investment team oh that's interesting okay yeah thanks for you

um so yeah about the post-quantum conversation Yeah, so what this app does is the problem is the second fire incident has compromised keys, private keys. So if you made a transaction, your private key is known. Now, the white hat has recovered a significant portion of funds and is committing to reimburse everyone impacted, but they need to be able to determine who is the actual owner of the wallet to reimburse them. Because the private normally to prove ownership of your wallet, you sign a message with your private key, but the private keys are compromised. So if you use that method, you know, anyone could pretend that they're that person and go claim. And so you have to allow people to prove ownership without you can't rely on the private key. And so what this does is it relies on the master private key or the seed phrase. and so you can prove you on the wallet by creating a zero knowledge proof that you have the master private key which derives to that credential and that's what this app allows you to do and you can go use it it's on pre-prod you can go lock some funds and you can go claim them and build a big paper on your own computer and the reason this is important for quantum resistance or has implications in that is because say we want to upgrade to quantum resistant addresses like lattice space wallets and things like that we can't rely on the private key because if we're doing this that means that quantum the machinery has sufficiently advanced to the point where hash based cryptography can be cracked so they can get your private key right but even with quantum computing generally accessible they can do that they can't get your seed phrase right because there's no public key and no signature and so this allows you to do this to perform safe quantum migration okay that makes sense uh that makes sense all right that's actually really interesting Thank you.

I had a question for Charles, but maybe he'll come back, maybe not. If he said that you need four to five unicorns, and again, I have a growth for TVL, best thing that can happen, but I wanted to pivot on four or five unicorns. So I wanted to ask him if he could use all his current relationships, business and enterprise ones. just create a contract in which they create a reinforcement ecosystem loop, like Teter and Solana do, like Amazon, Microsoft, and OpenAI do. They get to at least $20 million a year. So imagine four or five holding companies, not IO, for example, but holding companies. They get $20 to $30 million a year, even if the gross profit is 5% to 10%. That's a sufficient amount of yearly revenue to get a 50x valuation so that you get a unicorn with 1 to 1.5 billion valuation, and then there's your four to five unicorns. But all the examples that he gave the past one hour were revolutionary, obviously. But besides SpaceX, all of them were business to consumer. Steve Jobs primarily was focusing on something revolutionary that was tied to the consumer. If the consumer nowadays is harder to convince because of ADD, ADHD, because of social media and what else not, it seems like... the game becomes more business-to-business business than enterprise. So I wanted to ask him on that. Next time he comes in and stays, hopefully, I get to ask him that question on the difficulty level of creating such a reinforcement loop. Because in theory, it's simple. Like chat GPT came in, but what happened from an accounting perspective when chat GPT came in is exactly that. It's not like business-to-consumer, they have an insane amount of subscriptions or business-to-business for people that want to create the next chat GPT or something else. It was more business-to-business business and enterprise, and then the other public companies, although chat GPT is not public, they created these reinforcement ecosystem loops in which they spend money between each other. It's not like one-sided spending, it's a multi-signed spending, and that just boosts your numbers, and they own you that.